Lisa Interview

Interviewed by Red Canary Song in Mandarin
Translated by Jo Z
Lisa

Lisa is a Chinese massage worker in Flushing with 7 years of experience. She serves as a Chinese outreach team leader at Red Canary Song.

Red Canary Song is a grassroots collective of asian migrant sex workers and allies, organizing transnationally.

Jo Z currently is a student at UCLA School of Law. She is a volunteer with Chinatown Community for Equitable Development (CCED) in Los Angeles. CCED is an all volunteer, multi-ethnic, intergenerational organization based in Los Angeles Chinatown that builds grassroots power through organizing, education, and mutual help.

Red Canary Song
How long have you been in the States?

Lisa
I’ve been in the U.S. for over six years now. I’ve never been away from home for so long–never in my whole life.

RCS
Why did you decide here in the first place?

Lisa
When I lost a lot of money doing business in China, I became depressed. After thinking things through, I came to America. When I first came, I looked for jobs everywhere. In the end, I felt that it was really difficult to get started in the restaurant or nail salon industry. My back was too bad to work in a restaurant standing. My vision was too bad for doing nails. As for massage work, there was a relatively short learning period–I was able to start working within about half a month.

RCS
How did you feel about getting into this job and this industry?

Lisa
Honestly, in my heart, I didn’t want to do massage work. When you first come to a place, you know nothing at all–it’s like being in total darkness. If you don’t work, how are you supposed to survive, to eat, to pay rent? Eventually I took on a night shift. I worked 10:30AM to 10:00PM here, and 11PM to 4AM at another massage place–I worked two jobs at that time. I kept this up for about half a year. Initially I never rested–I couldn’t stop. Because I had just come from China, I had a lot of pressure–and a lot of debt. I wanted to tire myself out instead of taking a break. If I took a break my mind would wander, and if my mind wandered I would start to cry. Over a period of 4 months, I only rested for a day and a half.

RCS
That sounds insane. How was your body handling the stress and labor?

Lisa
In the beginning I even caught skin diseases like eczema–I wasn’t accustomed to the environment here. Additionally, my immune system was weak from exhaustion–I worked two jobs, and my mood was terrible. Since I had just gotten here, I didn’t go see a doctor. It took a long time for my social security number to be issued–over a year or so. I went to Main St. to buy Chinese medicine–I spent about $1,000 on Chinese medicine. I paid for all of it myself. Basically I got scammed out of a lot of money. A sick person in panic would seek cures anywhere. Without health insurance, they wouldn’t help me. The pharmacists did not dare to sell me any prescription medication. So I could only buy skin ointments like “Pi Kang Wang” and “Pi Yan Ping.” They didn’t work. Eventually I got my insurance card and went to see a dermatologist. He said my skin condition was caused by my weak immune system and an accidental cut. He said the condition was so serious that I should go home and rest for a month. I said I couldn’t–I had to earn money for my family. My dad had dementia, and my mom had cancer. I said, how can I rest when my entire family is waiting on my paycheck? He joked that if I couldn’t rest, then I’d better die. He said I must be an optimist, laughing even in such dire circumstances.

RCS
Were you made aware about any of the risks doing this kind of work beforehand?

Lisa
Initially I didn’t know there were any risks. Because I had just come, others would not reveal everything to me. No one told me I couldn’t do massage work or anything. It wasn’t until about a year in that I realized the risks.

RCS
What happened?

Lisa
The cops came to arrest us. I was stunned, like an idiot–I had no idea what was happening. They came in normally, like regular customers. He asked for a massage, so I brought him in. I had only massaged him for a minute–the clothes hadn’t even come off. He said, “Can you squeeze my shoulder?” So I squeezed his shoulder. Then all the cops came in. He said I was massaging without a license.

RCS
They baited you.

Lisa
Yeah, they entrapped me. They told me to stand over there for my photo to be taken. I was wearing a short sleeve–my clothes were a little bit revealing. I asked, “Can I pull it together a bit?” He didn’t let me adjust my clothes, but pulled it further apart instead.

RCS
For real? Did they bring a translator? Were you able to understand anything from them?

Lisa
They spoke in English–I couldn’t understand anything. They didn’t bring an interpreter. They came and arrested all of us. I was completely stunned, and didn’t know what was happening. I was arrested and spent the night in jail. When they released us the next day, they sent us to do community service. I know this was definitely illegal.

RCS
How did this end? Did you go to any hearings?

Lisa
The next morning we had to appear in court. They told me that I had to plead guilty: I could either plead unlicensed massage, or I could plead prostitution, which was a lesser crime–unlicensed massage was a felony. I didn’t know what to do, so I did whatever they told me to. The lawyer told us all to plead guilty. Those who couldn’t get over it pleaded unlicensed massage; those who got over it pleaded prostitution.

RCS
But you were simply told about this information. They didn’t show you the laws that were based on, did they?

Lisa
No. They at least let us pick from these two options the first time. The second time they came they charged us with both: unlicensed massage plus prostitution. Then they came a third time. This third time they did not arrest us or ask us to go with them. About a dozen of them came, some were with the Department of Buildings, some were with the FBI. In any case, people from several departments all came. They closed down the parlor.

RCS
With paper seals on the door?

Lisa
Yes. Afterwards, it was the lawsuit. They said our interior was not up to code, and told our landlord to get a work permit from the Department of Buildings. Because I took over this parlor from someone else, I didn’t make any changes and took everything as is. Even though they were technically punishing the landlord, I was the one being punished in effect, since I was the one using the premises at the time. The landlord was not willing to pay the fines, so I had to pay it myself.

RCS
But the fine was not ticketed to you, but the landlord, wasn’t it?

Lisa
Correct. Eventually I found a lawyer who specialized in massage parlor lawsuits. I paid him $6,400 out of my own pocket. He went to the Department of Buildings to help me wipe away the fines (under landlord’s name).

RCS
He asked for that much?

Lisa
In truth, he scammed me out of my money. Everyday for about three month I carried my backpack with me, drinking coffee in front of the 109th precinct. Having no job and not knowing where to go, I suffered through each day like that.

RCS
That’s simply not fair. The landlord should be dealing with all of this, not you.

Lisa
Of course he was in the wrong. But even if he was in the wrong, it was better to save the trouble. To fight over something like this, even if you win the lawsuit, you’ll have lost the time. Many people would not bother fighting. These grievances can only be kept to yourself–better to let go, to endure.
It’s like the time when I was robbed. It happened in this very room. That day I was about to get off work, but he said I only needed to do half an hour. When I was done, he didn’t get up for a long time. Finally, he said, “Hand me your phone phone phone.” I thought maybe he wanted to type into a translation app. But he wrote “lie down” and “robbery.” He asked me if I “wanted to see mother and father again.” I understood him. Of course I wanted to see my mother and father. “If you want to see mother and father, take out your money money money money.” He said, “money money money money.” I told him, “no money, no money.” He pointed the gun at me.

RCS
He had a gun?

Lisa
He looked everywhere, tore up the whole place. He found it inside that cabinet. He said I was dishonest–so much money was there, yet I said “no money.” He threatened to shoot me. All I could do was to kneel on the floor and say “sorry, sorry, sorry.” I said this money was for paying this house’s rent. I had saved up two months’ rent. I was originally going to pay one month, but the landlord agreed to give me a discount if I paid two. In that bag I had two months’ rent plus what I had earned that day. That day I was especially lucky. Everyone I came across was so generous, I thought. $120, $120… I did two or three $120 jobs. It was the most money I had ever made in a single day since coming to New York–all of it was robbed.

RCS
But you didn’t call the police on him.

Lisa
Calling the cops wouldn’t do any good. They can’t chase back my money, anyways. Besides, if I went to the station, they would question me all night.

RCS
Right. The police obviously don’t care about you nor your money. Besides these traumatic events, how about the everyday experience? Do you feel discriminated against by just people living here?

Lisa
The business owners and the pharmacy next door think we have too many men coming and going all the time. If you are a massage worker, of course they have no respect for you, right? First of all, they think you’re a migrant, a newcomer. We do not have as much seniority in this neighborhood as them.

RCS
But aren’t they immigrants too?

Lisa
Those who have been here for a decade or two will see you only as a migrant girl. We make them uncomfortable. If we accidentally leave the trash somewhere and forget about it, they would drag it into the stairwell. One guy did this twice–he strewed the trash all over my stairs.

RCS
What’s your take on the work you do? Do you think it’s of any importance to society?

Lisa
My view on this…how do I say this…honestly we’re doing a good deed. We help the migrant workers in this city. When they get tired, we help ease their weariness. For their bodily needs, we do not help with our bodies–rather, we help with our manual techniques. For them, this is also a form of bodily catharsis, a little consolation. To be honest, it isn’t easy for these migrant working men. Their homes are not here, neither are their wives and children. When you see this expression of being desired on their faces, you can’t help but feel some sympathy. Some men don’t cry easily, but I came across this one guy–he really held me and cried. He said he did research in a restricted facility, and hadn’t seen a woman in three years. What do you do in this situation? He was probably suffering so much from all this repression. He was essentially begging you. So what do you say to that? He was young, not a fifty, sixty, or seventy-something, right? With a thirty-something young man like him, what do you do?

RCS
It’s care work. It’s care work for a unfairly sexually deprived population that’s also part of our community. What do other ladies in this work think about this? Do you guys talk?

Lisa
Actually, they understand it clearly–they just don’t want to confront this issue, they don’t want to directly engage with it. Instead of confronting it, they react with ambivalence.

RCS
But how do you deal with OB-GYN related health issues if you only react with ambivalence? Is there enough awareness in the massage worker community regarding health issues?

Lisa
Like, we feel like this issue must be confronted, right? If they get sick themselves, they would feel embarrassed. But no one is a saint, and anyone can get sick–it’s natural. However, many people do not want to learn about it, and do not want to touch this area.

RCS
You are working with the Red Canary Song Chinese outreach team now. How do you want to help with this stigma?

Lisa
I just want to bring them a deeper understanding. I want to tell them that we need more exchanges, because it will help all of us in so many ways. When it comes to OB-GYNs, as women we should visit them regularly for check ups and care. This is beneficial for our own bodies. No matter what line of work you’re in, only your body belongs to yourself. I want to help in these areas. I want to meet with my sisters regularly and talk to them about this: us women need to give ourselves a little more love. We should get out there, get physical exams and OB-GYN check-ups. I also want to talk to them about how to avoid the risks in this industry.

RCS
What do you wish for these days?

Lisa
My wish is that every time I take my sisters to sing karaoke, I can make them happy–if they’re happy, I feel happy. I used to get a karaoke room and sing all by myself. If my sisters are unhappy, then I’m also unhappy. Whether it is friends, clients, or roommates, I hope that everyone I know can be happy–if they’re happy, then I feel happy.

RCS
Final question: where do you find a sense of belonging?

Lisa
Wherever I find happiness, that’s where my home is.